Comment: <I>Expelled</I> generates more heat than light in evolution debate

Comment: Expelled generates more heat than light in evolution debate

By Peter T. Chattaway

CANADIANS are making their mark on the evangelical movie scene -- but unlike our brethren south of the border, most of us may have to wait until the movie in question comes out on video to see what all the fuss is about.

The latest Christian film to crack the all-important top-ten list at the box office is Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, a documentary on the Intelligent Design (ID) movement hosted by Ben Stein, a former speechwriter for Presidents Nixon and Ford who is best known for playing a boring teacher in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

The film opened at #10 when it was released to American theatres April 18, but as of this writing, there are no plans to release it in Canada, even though producer Walt Ruloff lives on Bowen Island and writer Kevin Miller, a former critic for Hollywood Jesus and an occasional contributor to BC Christian News, lives in Abbotsford.

As with a number of recent films, Expelled owes much of its success to controversy -- beginning with the accusations made as far back as last September by atheist scientists Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers, who claimed they were interviewed for the film under false pretenses, and had no idea of its religious inclinations.

Whether that's true is not for me to say. But the film itself -- which I saw at a local post-production facility in downtown Vancouver -- certainly plunges into its controversial subject matter in a way that is designed to get attention, provoke laughter, stimulate outrage and generally produce more heat than light.

In many ways, Expelled follows the template set by Michael Moore and his imitators. Stein injects his interviews with deadpan humour -- telling one ID theorist that he was tossed out of the academic establishment for being a "bad boy" -- and occasionally he wanders around, looking lost outside the Discovery Institute in Seattle or being turned away from the Smithsonian by a security guard.

The film, directed by Nathan Frankowski, also uses cheesy archival footage to mock some of the atheists' claims; and the closest it ever comes to explaining what ID theory actually is, and thus whether it deserves any sort of scientific attention, comes via a cheeky animated sequence on 'The Casino of Life' that is similar in feel and tone to the history-of-guns bit in Moore's film Bowling for Columbine.

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Alas, the film also cherry-picks quotes in a way that will be disappointing to anyone who is familiar with the debate over ID and the origins of life. British scientists-turned-clergymen Alister McGrath and John Polkinghorne are dropped in for a few seconds to explain that religion and science can get along, but no mention is made of the fact that both men subscribe to evolutionary theory and are critical of ID.

And Stein's climactic interview with Dawkins includes an exchange that is treated like a major 'gotcha!' moment, yet if anything it suggests there is something fundamentally dishonest, or at least disingenuous, about the ID movement.

Put simply: To assure people that ID really is science and not just religion in disguise, ID theorists have been insisting for years that they make no claims about the nature of the Intelligent Designer himself. He could be natural, like an alien, or he could be supernatural, like a god; all they want to do is look for evidence of design itself. But the moment Dawkins runs with the possibility that aliens might have created life on Earth, the movie pounces as if to say the very idea is absurd.

Matters are further confused by the fact that the film never acknowledges that some ID theorists actually believe in evolution, albeit perhaps only to a point. Instead, the film allows the viewer to think that ID and evolution are natural enemies -- an idea deepened by the film's efforts to link Darwinism with the Holocaust.

The problem is, evolutionary theory -- which is both older and newer than Darwin, by the way -- is either true or it isn't, and it doesn't matter much whether people have abused the theory, any more than it matters whether people have abused, say, the teachings of Jesus. Within the film, Dawkins links the Bible to genocide just as surely as Stein links evolution to genocide, so what good does that tactic really do?

What we need is a film that can explore the limits of science, the nature of scientific research, and the interplay of science and faith in a way that makes us all better thinkers. But would anyone want to be involved, and would it get so much publicity from the media, and would it do as well at the box office? Probably not.

April 24/2008

Comments

Intelligent Design advocates need to spend more time on research and less time on trying to abuse the political process to inject unverified claims into science books.
#1 Kobra - 04/24/2008 - 01:18

This is not a "christian" movie...This is a movie about repression in the scientific community whenever someone has the gall to mention or believe that there is purpose or design in the universe wherever that might come from, although God (not a christian-only concept) is the main viewpoint (but the idea of a super intelligent race of aliens is broached in the movie.) There are some christians in the movie but their faith is never directly fleshed out and Ben Stein, the movie's focus is Jewish.
#2 Scott in Indiana - 04/24/2008 - 01:24

ID is not science. One can freely believe in ID and evolution. One can freely believe that evolution is God's grand design for life on Earth. An Intelligent designer could have created life and evolution is just how it plays out.

But ID is a belief. It cannot be tested or falsified. We "Darwinists" mainly get upset when people want to put a faith-based ideology in a science class. It is not fair to our children to represent a non-science as science just to appease adults that apparently lack strong faith in their own religion.

These ID "scientists" should be fired for focusing on ID in a SCIENCE classroom. That's the beef. Talk about it all you want in philosophy class or wherever else. But science professors shouldn't be getting paid for failing to teach accepted science in favor of a belief system.

#3 Frank D. - 04/24/2008 - 03:29

I find it interesting that the ID crowd keep shouting about free speech when it is there intention to stiffel said free speech with their religious views. Intelligent Design was created by a lawyer to try and get arround the seperation of church and state. The whole reason for it's existences is to try and kill reason and with that free speech and impose a theocracy on the United States.

Makes me very glad I'm British and these people get laughed out of town and called liars very publicly when they try to push it into schools across here.

If the US wishes to remain a first world nation then you need to put an end to this rubbish now, if not then I hope you enjoy watching the rest of the world rush past you and leave you in the dust.
#4 Gold Dragon 1968 - 04/24/2008 - 08:10

Kudos to the reviewer in bringing a fair and balanced review of a horribly unbalanced movie.
#5 CMAN - 04/24/2008 - 08:57

Scott in Indiana, you give your state and my country a bad reputation. Your claim that Expelled is not a Christian movie is dishonest. The producers are Christians and their gullible audience are Christians. Everyone knows the designer is the Christian God. Everyone knows your "purpose or design in the universe" is just another way of saying everything was magically created. Magic is a childish idea, and magic certainly is not science.

You complain about "repression in the scientific community". Did you expect people who make dishonest claims about biological evolution, because they want to replace science with magic, to be respected? Proponents of intelligent design magic are equal to flat-earthers and they deserve to be ridiculed. If they don't want to be ridiculed they should keep their childish medieval beliefs in church and out of our schools.

The producers of Expelled are compulsive liars. For information google "Expelled Exposed".
#6 BobC from Florida - 04/24/2008 - 11:17

Really, the idea that everything evolved out of nothing smacks more of magic and wishful thinking. With all that can be objectively seen in reality, to say that there is no first cause and no ultimate meaning in the universe; these are the very things that will stifle scientific inquiry and human advance. This is akin to those guys in the 19th century who were saying that “everything has been discovered”. I hope people don't gullibly stop at "Expelled Exposed" and exercise some proper inquiry into this issue, maybe even actually see the movie themselves. Holding to the evolutionary model because ideologues call it “science” condemn people to a box they can’t think outside of. It’s a good guess that McGrath and Polkinghorne are open to other ideas because they do believe in first causes and meaning. This type of scientist won’t be blind to new discovery. Love ya'll.
#7 Rob - 04/24/2008 - 12:32

For "true" evolution to occurr (we're not talking natural selection or speciation, for those are observable processes)you need an increase in useful DNA. There has never been one observed case of creation of new DNA. Sure, you get copies or deletions of DNA but never anything new. To go from a non organic entity to a human being is certainly magic and as one of the previous posters has written, "Magic is a childish idea, and magic certainly is not science."
#8 Rob - 04/24/2008 - 12:45

Movie is a satire and overkill of a valid point. It is to stimulate open discussion. I grew in communist atheistic country and we were brainwashed with ridiculous claims of evolutionism and Darwinism. Friend of mine who became a world renown scientist challenged these views and was told to keep quiet as his arguments were irrefutable. He was not "expelled" by faculty who recognized he had a point. With the scientific discoveries of last twenty years one has to be naive to believe outdated theories of Darwin and theory of natural selection. It is in the area of science fiction and nice fairy tail script for some of the Holliwood movies. Whether one is a Christian or not should not enter the picture as it only create heat and fogs the real issue. ID is much more viable option and if this leads a person to accept the belief in Diety it should not be used against that person in any deragotary way. The same should apply the other way around. Disrespect going either way won't serve either side. My personal observation as I see the expansion of scientific knowledge is that the 50 years from now the theory of natural selection and the Darwinian theory will be viewed in a similar way as the postion of the RC Church in Middle ages on the flatness of the earth and the sun orbitting the earth.
#9 Charlie - 04/24/2008 - 13:03

There's no shortage of flat-earthers who prefer supernatural magic instead of science.

Why are so many people so willing to throw out mountains of scientific evidence to justify their medieval beliefs?

There's many reasons. For example they're too lazy to study science. They prefer the easy answer to every problem: god-did-it. They want to throw out science and replace it with religion. They believe in a god-of-the-gaps. The problem is as gaps in human knowledge disappear their god-of-the-gaps runs out of hiding places. To defend their god-of-the-gaps they become liars. I noticed most creationists are compulsive liars, and the producers of the anti-science propaganda movie "Expelled" are no exception.

The most important reason there are still creationists is because they are just plain stupid. There can be nobody more childish and dimwitted than people who prefer magic instead of scientific explanations.
#10 BobC from Florida - 04/24/2008 - 14:05

BobC from Florida, you seem to have a major chip on your shoulder. What mountain of evidence are you talking about? Where are all of the fossils from transitional forms? There are none! Big Bang theory? How many times has it been revised? How many times is it yet to be revised? I could accuse you of the very thing that you accuse creationists of. You do not look at the scientific evidences for creation, of which there are many. Google creation ministries international to see for yourself. Your hostility towards creationism is a prime example of the message that this film is trying to get across.
#11 Rob - 04/24/2008 - 15:16

Rob repeats the Creationist claim that no one has ever seen the creation of new DNA.

Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrongetty, wrong, wrong!

About as wrong as you can be.

Not only do we understand how such new information could be written into DNA (replication and mutation), it can even be done in the lab and has been observed countless times.

1. Long, M., Betran, E., Thornton, K. and Wang, W. (2003). "The origin of new genes: glimpses from the young and old." Nature Reviews Genetics. 4(11): 865-875.
2. Adami et al., 2000. (see below)
3. Alves MJ, Coelho MM, Collares-Pereira MJ, 2001. Evolution in action through hybridisation and polyploidy in an Iberian freshwater fish: a genetic review. Genetica 111(1-3): 375-385. [2]
4. Brown CJ, Todd KM, Rosenzweig RF, 1998. Multiple duplications of yeast hexose transport genes in response to selection in a glucose-limited environment. Mol. Biol. Evol. 15(8): 931-942. [3]
5. Decadt, Y. JG, 2000. On the origin and impact of information in evolution paper available on the internet.
6. Hughes AL, Friedman R, 2003. Parallel evolution by gene duplication in the genomes of two unicellular fungi. Genome Res. 13(6A): 1259-1264.
7. Knox JR, Moews PC and Frere J-M, 1996. Molecular evolution of bacterial beta-lactam resistance. Chemistry & Biology 3: 937-947.
8. Lang, D. et al, 2000. Structural evidence for evolution of the beta/alpha barrel scaffold by gene duplication and fusion. Science 289: 1546-1550. See also Miles, E.W. & Davies, D.R., 2000. On the ancestry of barrels. Science 289: 1490.
9. Lenski, R.E., 1995. in Population Genetics of Bacteria, Society for General Microbiology, Symposium 52, eds. Baumberg, S., Young, J.P.W., Saunders, S.R. & Wellington, E.M.H., Cambridge University Press, UK., pp. 193-215.
10. Lenski, R., Rose, M.R., Simpson, E.C. & Tadler, S.C., 1991. American Naturalist 138: 1315-1341.
11. Long M. (2001). "Evolution of novel genes." Curr Opin Genet Dev. 11(6):673-80.
12. Long, M., Betran, E., Thornton, K. and Wang, W. (2003). "The origin of new genes: glimpses from the young and old." Nature Reviews Genetics. 4(11): 865-875.
13. Lynch M and Conery JS, 2000. The evolutionary fate and consequences of duplicate genes. Science 290: 1151-1155. See also Pennisi, E., 2000. Twinned genes live life in the fast lane. Science 290: 1065-1066.
14. Nurminsky DI, Nurminskaya MV, De Aguiar D, Hartl DL. (1998). "Selective sweep of a newly evolved sperm-specific gene in Drosophila." Nature. 396(6711):572-5.
15. Ohta T., 2003. Evolution by gene duplication revisited: differentiation of regulatory elements versus proteins. Genetica 118(2-3): 209-216.
16. Park IS, Lin CH, and Walsh CT, 1996. Gain of D-alanyl-D-lactate or D-lactyl-D-alanine synthetase activities in three active-site mutants of the Escherichia coli D-alanyl-D-alanine ligase B. Biochemistry 35: 10464-10471.
17. Prijambada ID et al., 1995. Emergence of nylon oligomer degradation enzymes in Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO through experimental evolution. Applied and Environmental Microbiology 61(5): 2020-2022.
18. Schneider, T.D., 2000. Evolution of biological information. Nucleic Acids Res 28(14): 2794-2799. [4]
19. Zhang J, Zhang YP, Rosenberg HF, 2002. Adaptive evolution of a duplicated pancreatic ribonuclease gene in a leaf-eating monkey. Nature Genetics 30(4):411-415. See also: Univ. of Michigan, 2002, How gene duplication helps in adapting to changing environments. [5]
20. Whitman CP. (2002). "The 4-oxalocrotonate tautomerase family of enzymes: how nature makes new enzymes using a beta-alpha-beta structural motif." Arch Biochem Biophys. 402(1):1-13.PubMed DOI
21. Bos DH. (2005). "Natural selection during functional divergence to LMP7 and proteasome subunit X (PSMB5) following gene duplication." J Mol Evol. 60(2):221-8. PubMed
22. Ballicora MA, Dubay JR, Devillers CH, Preiss J. (2005). "Resurrecting the ancestral enzymatic role of a modulatory subunit." J Biol Chem. 280(11):10189-95. PubMed
23. Todd AE, Orengo CA, Thornton JM. (2002)."Sequence and structural differences between enzyme and nonenzyme homologs." Structure (Camb). 10(10):1435-51. PubMed
24. Todd AE, Orengo CA, Thornton JM. (2002). "Plasticity of enzyme active sites." Trends Biochem Sci. 27(8):419-26. PubMed
25. Bartlett GJ, Borkakoti N, Thornton JM. (2003). "Catalysing new reactions during evolution: economy of residues and mechanism." J Mol Biol. 331(4):829-60. PubMed
26. James LC, Tawfik DS. (2001). "Catalytic and binding poly-reactivities shared by two unrelated proteins: The potential role of promiscuity in enzyme evolution." Protein Sci. 10(12):2600-7. PubMed
27. Todd AE, Orengo CA, Thornton JM. (2001). "Evolution of function in protein superfamilies, from a structural perspective." J Mol Biol. 307(4):1113-43. PubMed
28. Raes, J., Van de Peer, Y. (2002). "Gene duplication, the evolution of novel gene functions, and detecting functional divergence of duplicates in silico." Appl Bioinformatics. 2(2):91-101. PubMed
29. Van de Peer, Y., Taylor, J. S., Braasch, I., Meyer, A. "The ghost of selection past: rates of evolution and functional divergence of anciently duplicated genes." J Mol Evol. 53(4-5):436-446.
30. Carginale, V., Trinchella, F., Capasso, C., Scudiero, R., Riggio, M., Parisi, E. (2004). "Adaptive evolution and functional divergence of pepsin gene family." Gene. 333:81-90. PubMed
#12 Jim - 04/24/2008 - 15:28

"Expelled" refers to several college profs and scientists who were reportedly denied tenure or lost their jobs because they dared to mention Intelligent Design (ID) in the classroom, in research papers, or on the job. The film presents these cases in varying degrees of detail, but always implying that a clear injustice was done in each situation. (Christianity Today looked into at least one of the cases earlier this year—that of Guillermo Gonzalez, denied tenure at Iowa State University ostensibly due to his support of ID.)

The film's subtitle, "No Intelligence Allowed," refers to what Stein and the filmmakers decry as a lack of "academic freedom" or "open inquiry" in academia and the scientific community. The movie argues that gatekeepers in those circles aren't even allowing ID as a topic of discussion.
Is it right to stand up for free speech or not? ID should be allowed to be discussed in universities and in scientific communities.
#13 MD - 04/24/2008 - 15:50

I am saddened that a "Christian" review would be so negative against a movie that is trying to get people to see the disgrace of ID not being allowed to be spoken of in universities and the scientific community. Compared to almost all of the other movies out there....this one is taking a stand for people's right to even discuss ID. Would you rather the banning of ID discussion continue? I see no "Christianity" in your review.
#14 CID - 04/24/2008 - 15:53

Does the fact that in *every single claimed case* of discrimnation, the film presents a mixture of selectively edited stories and outright BS make any difference, MD?

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth
#15 Jim - 04/24/2008 - 16:06

Over and over I read reviews about "Expelled" lambasting it for being a propaganda film that fails to provide any evidence to support the claims of ID. This movie began and ended with the point that it was about freedom.
If America is about anything it is about freedom...freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry. The makers of the movie are not so much making the point that everyone needs to accept ID, but that everyone should be allowed to hear the evidence and arguments for both SCIENTIFIC viewpoints and make their own decision. The POINT to the movie is about allowing researchers and professors to be allowed to openly discuss and explore both approaches and allow the chips to fall as they did in the solar vs terrestrial orbit argument of times past. The level of hysterics coming from the Darwinist camp seems telling.
As Shakespeare would probably say, they 'protest too much'.
#16 Terri - 04/24/2008 - 19:21

This article rebuts the movie very strongly:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know
#17 Craig - 04/24/2008 - 19:57

The science - Behe's Irreducible Complexity, for example - is already out there and well known. It's been rejected because it just doesn't work.

It's bad science.

That's why most scientists don't like ID, not some knee jerk reaction on the basis of their atheism.

Where's the Christian campaign to 'teach the controversy over the shape of the Earth'? How come no one thinks Flat Earthism should be taught to school kids, yet thinks the biology equivalent - ID - should?

If ID science worked, however much evolutionary biologist hated it, it would *be* science.

It doesn't work and just saying that it does, doesn't make it so.

Until someone comes up with a scientific theory of ID that works, why should it be taught to children? Is it really that controvertial to not teach failed science?

It's not protesting too much. It's protesting precisely the right amount.
#18 Jim - 04/25/2008 - 05:23

I think you need to check your notes again, Peter. The film clearly states that the IDers have no problem with evolution. The question is how it happened. Was it guided or unguided? At least three of the IDers make this point in the film.
#19 PLuS - 04/25/2008 - 09:17

If anyone is interested in the discussion that Jim's list of articles came from, Google found it at the end of an aricle - "Evolutin of new information" at: http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_of_new_information.
This article seems to be in response to an article by Dr. Stephen C. Meyers, "Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories". You can read it at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177. Jim, are you the author of the wiki article?
#20 Rob (one of the Rob's anyway) - 04/25/2008 - 13:37

Nope. It's just such a commonly-cited creationist argument that I happen to know where there's a whacking great bibliography of peer reviewed and well cited papers that refute it.

That http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php should be essential reading for anyone who thinks they have a good argument about evolution though.

Incidentally, that Meyer article is the one that Richard Sternberg published, and over which Sternberg claims to have been victimised.

I can only hope that if I ever suffer bullying it the workplace it's as non-existant as that suffered by poor Mr Sternberg:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/sternberg
#21 Jim - 04/25/2008 - 14:17

Terri wrote:
If America is about anything it is about freedom...freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry.

A couple points in reply.

First, national politics has nothing to do with it. The film does try to suggest that there is something significant about the fact that the American Declaration of Independence contains the word "Creator". But from a scientific point of view, it doesn't matter what any political document says.

Second, there are limits to all freedoms, even in America. The freedom of expression does not permit anyone to commit libel or slander, or to yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre unless there is, in fact, a fire in that theatre. Likewise, there is a lot of freedom in scientific circles, but only some theories are permitted because only some theories qualify as scientific. It is not at all clear that ID is one of those theories. (There is a reason why scientists study astronomy and not astrology -- and for what it's worth, ID theorist Michael Behe apparently admitted in court that his definition of "theory" was broad enough to include astrology.) In fact, ID theorist Paul Nelson reportedly said a few years ago that IDers like him have, so far, produced "no general theory of biological design." So until they can produce such a theory, IDers will have difficulty convincing anyone that they represent a genuine scientific movement.

PLuS wrote:
I think you need to check your notes again, Peter. The film clearly states that the IDers have no problem with evolution. The question is how it happened. Was it guided or unguided? At least three of the IDers make this point in the film.

Names? And by "evolution", do they specifically mean the emergence of new species from old species? Or do they simply mean what some creationists call "micro-evolution"? It is so-called "macro-evolution" that I was referring to in the review, and I do not recall any of the IDers coming out in favour of that. The closest they get, that I can recall, is saying that Darwin had some good ideas but didn't have the whole picture -- which is vague enough to allow for just about anything.
#22 Peter T Chattaway - 04/25/2008 - 15:01

You came to pretty much the exact same conclusions as we did over at Jesus Manifesto.com. It's a lost opportunity, really; something that could have been so good turned out hurting rather than helping.
#23 Jordan Peacock - 04/25/2008 - 17:58

Response to Jim:

The real questions that "Expelled " raises: if I want to conduct research on Intelligent Design will the referees judging my research squelch it because they don't welcome potential counter evidence? Will the referees of my intended publication after I do the research reject it solely because they can't countenance a challenge to their theory? Will I lose any chance of tenure because I try to publish evidence that disputes Darwinism?

"Expelled" claims "yes."

With respect to Jim's list of articles, they are interesting and worthy of consideration but as scientists we need to focus on disproving our theories not proving them. We already know it is easy to publish evidence in support of Darwinism. That evidence is welcome. If I have evidence to dispute it can I get that published? Given the rancor, the ad hominem arguments against ID, and examples cited by "Expelled" I think it would be very difficult if not impossible no matter how strong the evidence or how compelling the argument.

ListenUp provides an excellent first hand interviews with Ben Stein and others from "Expelled." It is well worth hearing from them the intent of their film.

http://www.listenuptv.com/

~Peter
#24 Peter - 04/25/2008 - 21:34

Peter - the bibliography was provided only because Rob stated explicitly that information could not be added to DNA by evolution. This is an idea that is very popular in creationist circles, yet is a matter of simple ignorance of what's out there. I don't even care if Rob doesn't believe it personally, but to imagine that evolutionary biologists aren't entirely satisfied that there is a repeatedly observed mechanism by which it may happen is just out and out wrong.

ID supporters - including people at the Discovery Insititue and other leading lights of ID/ Creationism might be taken more seriously if they didn't constantly make claims that are flagrantly not true.

I agree that science needs to try and disprove itself. The notion of falsifiability is a key concept of the scientific method. It means - for the benefit of those who may not know - that when you come up with an idea, you also come up with ideas that would disprove it. In this way, you can test the strength of the theory.

For example, an oft-quoted falsification of evolution would be 'rabbits in the pre-cambrian' meaning that because evolutionists believe rabbits evolved in a later time period, the discovery of a fossil of one in a pre-Cambrian stata of rock would significantly undermine evolutionary theory. And, of course, to date, no such fossil has been found. It remains something that would change our entire understanding if found. The potential for falsification doesn't go away.

To date, there has not been a single properly falsifiable theory to emerge from the proponants of ID. Michael Behe stated that the bacterial flagellum could only have arrived as a complete system. The idea being that if you removed any part of the flagellum it wouldn't work. Clearly an animal wouldn't evolve an adaptation that didn't work because evolution is quite clear that such disadvantaged individuals would be weeded out by natural selection. So, it must have been created as a single unit of inter-related parts. Falsification of this would be to discover a way in which the parts could have existed, probably by having been adapted from something else with another purpose, now since gone (and this is indeed what happened with Behe's example).

Behe has now pretty much abandonded examples of modification of biological systems because everytime he's come up with one, it's been debunked. He's now working at a biochemical level, hoping to find soemthing there.

If he does (unlikely as that may be), ID's next claim is that an intelligent designer must have created it (whatever 'it' turns out to be). Science cannot disprove a non-existant intelligent creator any more than it can disprove the existance of fairies. Therefore ID cannot be falsified. How can you test for such an intelligent designer? You cannot. This is why ID is not science.

Another point worth making is that not one evolutionary scientist has ever said you can't teach ID in a religious studies class. They've just said, 'it's not science, therefore you can't teach it in science classes'.
#25 Jim - 04/26/2008 - 02:31

The title "Expelled" indicates the main theme is not whether ID or Darwinism is the winner in the debate, but whether theists ought to be allowed to do science. (It's a problem Jim demonstrates in his comments above.)

You are right that the holocaust doesn't mean that Darwinism is true or false, though it does point to the fact that if one does have a moral code, it doesn't come from Darwinism.

The idea that "design" is merely a belief issue is bizarre. Looking at design is a key scientific tool for Archaeologists.

Exploring the interface between faith and science may be an interesting issue, but it is not a key issue. If you took away all the scientific insights of polytheists, pantheists (like Einstein), monotheists and Christians through the ages and left only those of agnostics or atheists, how impoverished would the field of science be?

Those who seek to diminish or disallow scientific discoveries on the basis of a scientist's belief system corrupt science. Science is about a certain kind of truth—not about the belief system, race, gender, age, etc., of the person with the insight. Anyone who has scientific insight should be welcome to the table. That some are currently blackballed merely because of their belief system is anti-science.
#26 Terrane - 04/26/2008 - 12:31

Loads of theists 'are allowed' to do science. There are plenty who believe fervently in God and produce world-reknowned science.

Here's a few off the top of my head:

Kenneth R Miller is one - he's an evolutionist and a theist. Biology professor at Brown University.

Colin Humphreys is professor of materials science at Cambridge. He's a Baptist.

Tom McLeish is professor of polymer physics at Leeds.

Russell Stannard is now emeritus professor of physics at the Open University and an Anglican.

It's simply not true that theists are 'not allowed' to do science and it's certainly not true that anyone has been blackballed because of their religious beliefs either.

There's a massive - and I would have thought entirely obvious - difference between people 'not being allowed' to do science because of their beliefs (which is utter nonsense) and not being allowed to claim that untestable, unscientific claims are, in fact, science (which does).

I think people possibly misunderstand what science is. Science is a method of explaining the material universe by recourse to evidence - it can be checked by physical evidence or calculations; there has to be proof. God cannot be proved. You all know that. You all insist that God is nothing without faith. That's why God is outside of the limits of science! As soon as you say, '...and observable thing X is down to God' you've stepped outside of what science can do by the very definition of what it is.

Does anyone here think that it would be reasonable to acknowledge it as good science if a vocal minority tried to claim that gravity works because of the direct intervention of Allah (or Vishnu or Thor etc), but yet was unable to offer any proof of the existance of said deity..? Doesn't that just sound the tiniest bit ridiculous..? That's a belief, not science! And that what ID comes down to.

Plenty of world-renowned Christian scientists exist. Plenty of world-renowned scientists from other faiths exist. They're just not insisting that the definition of what science is and can do be changed to accomodate unprovable beliefs.
#27 Jim - 04/26/2008 - 15:23

For the record, I have now seen transcripts of the three IDer quotes that supposedly affirm evolution within this film.

Paul Nelson, a young-earther, affirms nothing more than "change over time".

Jonathan Wells affirms nothing more than "minor changes within species" and explicitly belittles Darwin's efforts "to show how this same process leads to new species, in fact, to every species."

William Dembski comes closest to affirming evolution as most people use the term, except he pours on lots of qualifiers and never mentions any of the particulars of evolutionary theory except to marginalize them. After stressing the limitations of "natural selection", whatever those limitations might be, he concludes: "What we're finding with Darwin is that he had some valid insights, but it's not the whole picture."

Nowhere in these quotes do any of the IDers profiled in this film affirm, say, common descent, which is a key part of the sort of evolutionary theory that I had in mind when I wrote that "the film never acknowledges that some ID theorists actually believe in evolution, albeit perhaps only to a point."

And for what it's worth, I was thinking primarily of Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box, when I wrote that bit; Behe is not profiled in Expelled, as far as I can recall, but I believe he does accept common descent etc. -- he just doesn't think that Darwinian theory can account for the microscopic cell, the basic building block of life, and so he casts his lot with the ID crowd.
#28 Peter T Chattaway - 04/26/2008 - 18:17

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